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TD 012 - New Beginnings S2E4

TD 012 - New Beginnings

We have reached the end of season 2 for us, which is the beginning of something new we have no idea about and we have not heard about from anyone, something to be checked of course . We will continue meetings but on a different podcast with a different word: Synopsis which means 'Seeing Together'.

· 01:22:07


[paul]: You haven't done a musical intro this time.

[ayham_kader]: No, I'm goingnna. like post production easier.

[paul]: Yeah, okay, yeah,

[ayham_kader]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: we talked about. like what do we want from a dialogue?

[ayham_kader]: I actually don't really know what I want from this dialogue. Do you?

[paul]: no, not at all.

[ayham_kader]: you think it's important? the first, the starting point

[paul]: I think it is. Yeah.

[paul]: to find out why we're here.

[ayham_kader]: to find out why we're here,

[paul]: In other words,

[paul]: we may here because we want something.

[paul]: and that's what will say. that's why we here. I want to learn from you,

[paul]: or I want you to learn from me, or

[paul]: I want to

[paul]: discover something new.

[paul]: that maybe the motive behind bar here, that might be a particular mo.

[paul]: And we say that's why, but that's why I'm here. I know why I'm here,

[paul]: but I think, but I think the answer sir, reveals itself

[paul]: in the course of the dialogue. It. it's not something we know in advance.

[ayham_kader]: So knowing why we're here from the beginning

[ayham_kader]: is kind of like a pointless now.

[paul]: Well, I think if we know how we here, we kind of already diverged. We. we' already

[paul]: moving away from each other.

[ayham_kader]: Yeah,

[paul]: And

[paul]: because, even if we, even if we say we won both want the same thing,

[paul]: it won't be too long before we split up.

[paul]: We want variations of the same thing or ourversion of the same thing.

[ayham_kader]: yeah, I mean each has their own

[paul]: Yeah, yeah,

[ayham_kader]: memory. Where Re act to our own memory.

[ayham_kader]: I mean

[ayham_kader]: I am in discomfort. I can say that right.

[paul]: Mhm. Yes, that's understood.

[paul]: I

[ayham_kader]: understood,

[paul]: think I think most people are. I think if they are honest with themselves, most people

[paul]: are in discomfort

[paul]: either per. because either because a personal

[paul]: um, circumstances

[paul]: right,

[ayham_kader]: Mhm.

[paul]: because relationship itself is is a source of discomfort.

[paul]: The relationships that we that we have that we know about

[paul]: are largely unfululfilling

[paul]: or

[paul]: in their fulfilment. In the fulfilment we we, that we get from the relationship comes

[paul]: all the other things

[paul]: that threaten it,

[paul]: which is,

[paul]: and

[paul]: if we see, we haven't weve only been up talking a minute. but we've already uncovered

[paul]: that. And so it's not. It's not as though it we. We're not talking about something

[paul]: very deepen.

[paul]: but we, I think we keep it hidden.

[paul]: Um,

[paul]: in casual conversations we keep it hidden

[ayham_kader]: Mhm,

[paul]: at work would keep it hidden,

[paul]: our family. We keep it, but in a dialogue we could go straight to that as if we

[paul]: wanted.

[paul]: so so think that's one of the things

[paul]: all right then, So the question is what to we want from a doll. Or we don't want what

[paul]: a casual conversation would give us. We don't want what,

[paul]: Um.

[paul]: An evening with the family would give us reminiscences and plans for the future and

[paul]: No, and we don't want what work would give us, which is a lot of

[paul]: um.

[paul]: targets, And

[paul]: you know all the things related with work, which, which is all about maintaining the

[paul]: the image of the good worker.

[ayham_kader]: Yeah, but see

[ayham_kader]: for me, all these spaces are

[ayham_kader]: the spaces that I have seen myself in the past,

[ayham_kader]: eager

[ayham_kader]: to have a dialogue in. I know what a doalg was, but that was what I was doing.

[ayham_kader]: You know, having real

[ayham_kader]: in depth

[ayham_kader]: conversations about,

[ayham_kader]: but is important to us.

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: so this is me. I don't know about the others. I mean, I'm sure the others. Of

[ayham_kader]: course, exactly what you said, but about when it comes to me,

[paul]: ah, No, are you saying then that you? that you? So you tried to have a dialogue in a

[paul]: work situation in a family situation

[paul]: in a casual setting Is Is that the is? at the point you're making

[ayham_kader]: Yeah, always. and

[paul]: Okay?

[ayham_kader]: this is probably not the the most ideal thing to do and I wasn't really aware

[ayham_kader]: of it now when I became aware of dialogue. That's when I kind of stopped, not

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: stopped. As and I stopped myself. but like, Oh no, this is not. maybe the

[ayham_kader]: setting for it. This is not really the proper setup, or maybe the right person

[ayham_kader]: to talk with in such a way.

[paul]: uh, I. I feel it. it is. I don't know how it. I don'. I don't know whether that's

[paul]: possible.

[ayham_kader]: What's possible?

[paul]: doing what you? what? Doing that that you've tried to do.

[paul]: Um,

[ayham_kader]: Hmm,

[paul]: I think, or if it was me,

[paul]: And this is what we. This is what we' done with Sean. Right,

[paul]: who is a friend?

[paul]: We've told him that we. we do a lot of dialogues

[paul]: and come along and find out and that's what then'. Done it. you come along and he'

[paul]: found out and he quite enjoys them. Is coming to. as will you see him when it comes to

[paul]: a few, But we've never had a dialogue with him

[paul]: outside of the dialogue

[paul]: outside of the formal setting.

[ayham_kader]: Yeah,

[paul]: Now, I don't know whether that's right or wrong, but it

[paul]: it

[ayham_kader]: and and

[paul]: it, it works this way.

[ayham_kader]: yeah, I mean,

[ayham_kader]: Yeah, there is a great sense of integrity in this person. But

[paul]: well it, it's

[paul]: all right. Let the that's beening another example in cause we go up to Brockwood

[paul]: and

[paul]: we have dialogues. If we, we'll say that we'll say to the people. We're gonna have a

[paul]: dialogue

[paul]: either because it's put on as an arranged event

[paul]: or because we want to have a dialogue or mov. In what we'll invite people in. We'll

[paul]: arrange ourselves so it's okay, so we'll we'll go and sit somewhere and have a

[paul]: dialogue for an hour or two hours. However, however long it takes

[paul]: now,

[paul]: the other times of Brock, would we were sitting in the the dining table,

[paul]: Um, or we

[paul]: in the lounge in the evening

[paul]: and fragments of dialogue will will will happen

[paul]: to'll be moments.

[paul]: But but they, none of them really dialogues. Because we haven't.

[paul]: We haven't both agreed that that's what we're going to do.

[ayham_kader]: so what you're saying is the agreement is important.

[paul]: Yeah, we haven't put ourselves in that place where we set said that, Right with this,

[paul]: we're going to give this hour just to the dialogue

[paul]: Right

[paul]: then it works now, but then it works.

[ayham_kader]: Is that? I mean, Is that necessary, but is that necessary?

[paul]: I don't know about necessary, but that's that's kind. of.

[ayham_kader]: but we do.

[paul]: that's what we do.

[ayham_kader]: but see this is the thing.

[ayham_kader]: I'm not sure if that's necessary. I mean, don't get me wrong. Iq. Most of the

[ayham_kader]: people that I try to talk with in such a way. in the end it turns out to be

[ayham_kader]: entertainment right.

[paul]: That's that's the point. that's where it goes to even

[ayham_kader]: Yeah,

[paul]: a bro

[paul]: in in the lounge. In the evening. it goes to entertainment.

[ayham_kader]: but that doesn't change the fact that most of the dialogues that happen are

[ayham_kader]: actually also entertainment.

[paul]: That can go that way. It depends on the facilitator,

[paul]: but it depends on the group the nature of the group.

[ayham_kader]: Yeah, it depends on the individual. I would say.

[paul]: And and also,

[paul]: what? what do we mean by entertainment?

[ayham_kader]: I mean we. we. We said.

[ayham_kader]: I think we went into it before, but

[ayham_kader]: to clarify

[ayham_kader]: it's um, you know, kind of, uh, the the desire to relieve some.

[ayham_kader]: I don't know.

[ayham_kader]: you know. A sensory is kind of a sensory

[ayham_kader]: goal. having a sensory goal? Yeah, I would say

[ayham_kader]: you know to have some experience or some elevation of somehow

[ayham_kader]: know.

[paul]: Okay yet, so like a spiritual entertainment.

[paul]: You

[ayham_kader]: Sure. Sure,

[paul]: putting it crudely, but also, I think when you go to memory, that's entertainment. Is

[paul]: that what we saying as

[paul]: our own memory connect can be entertaining?

[paul]: or

[ayham_kader]: Yeah, definitely.

[paul]: can

[paul]: it can contribute to the entertainment

[ayham_kader]: then can we say maybe engaging

[ayham_kader]: memory is engaging

[paul]: memory engaging?

[ayham_kader]: right.

[paul]: But it comes back to this disco. Then you see if memory isn't engaging bodies,

[ayham_kader]: that's the point.

[paul]: And is is that the source of our discomfort,

[paul]: the absence of memory?

[ayham_kader]: Hm. Wait, what is the source of our discomfort? The absence of memory.

[paul]: or is it the other way? Is it too much memory?

[paul]: In other words, memory operating in in an area, doesn't it doesn't need to be.

[ayham_kader]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: I mean that's the thing right. Like asking the question,

[ayham_kader]: What is the source of discomfort

[ayham_kader]: or

[paul]: You see

[paul]: your discomforted, The. So you started by saying you have some sense of discomfort

[ayham_kader]: Mhm, Mhm,

[paul]: when you start to look at it, It itll be itll be based on.

[paul]: you have to use your memory to, first of all,

[paul]: explain what you talking about, wouldn't you? You fell out with somebody or something,

[paul]: didn't work, or

[paul]: some indent may have happened, or some concern may everrisen,

[paul]: some plan.

[paul]: I didn't go, as you hoped

[ayham_kader]: Mhm,

[ayham_kader]: Mhmm,

[paul]: so. In other words, I discomtys got always a cause to it,

[paul]: but I think In the dialogue we see

[paul]: we see we can see fairly quickly the superficial cause

[paul]: and then find a deeper cause underneath that.

[paul]: so

[paul]: the short discomfort, my discomfort,

[paul]: which are both got kind of

[paul]: their own history.

[paul]: But this discomt just discomt itself

[paul]: in in relationship, I mean not physical discomfort, but

[paul]: discomfort,

[ayham_kader]: T.

[paul]: and I think, whereas in a casual conversation

[paul]: the whole, the whole

[paul]: point of bringing up discomfort is to

[paul]: establish a comfort within that setting.

[paul]: Whereas in a dialoged we not bother about comfort. The fact is the discomfort.

[paul]: so it's not about establishing comfort.

[ayham_kader]: We want a discomfort in a way

[ayham_kader]: like I want it as an idea or something like that,

[ayham_kader]: but

[ayham_kader]: I mean, I keep searchingarching,

[ayham_kader]: finding and finding,

[ayham_kader]: maybe finding, but also and finding and then there's no satisfaction that

[ayham_kader]: really comes, which just doesn't

[ayham_kader]: Is stumbled stumamped upon, or reached. whatever it is that is reached through

[ayham_kader]: this act of seeking

[ayham_kader]: doesn't really cut it, so this discomfort actually clears out to be

[ayham_kader]: more of what it is, not in terms oftail or form,

[ayham_kader]: but realising

[ayham_kader]: thegony of

[ayham_kader]: just this agony.

[paul]: Now it's the agony.

[paul]: Is it related to the search for satisfaction?

[ayham_kader]: I really am not sure anymore.

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: Not sure about thatcause. Maybe the search for satisfaction is the distraction

[ayham_kader]: and it is the thing that creates its own discomfort.

[ayham_kader]: you know, and it becomes kind of like a vicious circle

[paul]: well, and it does Because the satisfaction

[paul]: only exists somewhere else.

[paul]: It isn't herefor

[paul]: be saying, The discover that's here is that

[paul]: actual discomfort.

[ayham_kader]: or discomfort that is not related to anything.

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: Or is it the kind of discomt that is related to something one way or another?

[paul]: yeah, yeah,

[ayham_kader]: I mean, See,

[ayham_kader]: doesn't matter

[ayham_kader]: in the dialogue does, does it matter?

[paul]: does it matter? It doesn't what matter the discomfort all day?

[ayham_kader]: Mm, No, does it matter what is what's dis comfort originated from.

[ayham_kader]: I mean you're lost in both cases,

[ayham_kader]: right,

[ayham_kader]: and searching for a solution for discomfort is actually

[ayham_kader]: moving away from it

[ayham_kader]: right.

[paul]: Yeah, but is it real?

[paul]: Is it real

[paul]: actual?

[paul]: or is it produced by my own by my own? It is my own thinking producing the discomfort.

[ayham_kader]: But we already addressed that. maybe you're putting it in a different way with

[ayham_kader]: a look. There is two kind of discomfort, The one that comes from the seek of

[ayham_kader]: satisfaction, which is memory based,

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: right thinking, and there is that that agony. whatever it is

[ayham_kader]: that no matter how much satisfied I get, it's still there.

[ayham_kader]: So you, as

[ayham_kader]: is it, that or the other,

[ayham_kader]: in a, in a generalurn sense, maybe in a in a casual way. Maybe that's an

[ayham_kader]: important question to ask. Maybe that question would uh, make someone one aware

[ayham_kader]: of what the dialogue is, you know, and maybe they become more interested in it.

[ayham_kader]: but

[ayham_kader]: for us in a dialogue, at least in a sincere way. Whatever that means,

[ayham_kader]: if if even that exists, does it matter

[ayham_kader]: what is that discomfort

[ayham_kader]: or where does that discomfort that is present with us now come from?

[paul]: if it's there,

[ayham_kader]: But we said most of the time there.

[paul]: it is most the time here

[paul]: because we're there

[paul]: memoryies there.

[ayham_kader]: But what

[ayham_kader]: are what are we on about? Are we here to verify,

[ayham_kader]: verify,

[ayham_kader]: or are we trying to make sure that it is here so we would know that we're

[ayham_kader]: attending attending it or not?

[ayham_kader]: I mean, I'm just asking the question. I don't know if you. if you find the

[ayham_kader]: question valid. By the way, that

[paul]: Mhm,

[ayham_kader]: may be important to ask. I don't know if you, if you don't find a question by,

[ayham_kader]: let me know why, and maybe we can reform the question. of course,

[ayham_kader]: but for me I'm still what that question is. like

[ayham_kader]: this question of discontent discomt

[ayham_kader]: in a dialogue or through a dialogue. Is it relevant

[ayham_kader]: where where this discomfort is coming from?

[paul]: But are we producing it?

[ayham_kader]: Are you asking that?

[paul]: Well, does't exist separately.

[ayham_kader]: I mean, we are in a dialogue because we don't know

[paul]: Yeah,

[paul]: but does't exist separate from

[paul]: an an image of

[paul]: perfection,

[ayham_kader]: Like something missing, You mean.

[paul]: Mhm,

[ayham_kader]: Is it the kind of discomfort

[ayham_kader]: that that relates to something that is missing?

[ayham_kader]: So I have to go and ask myself what what do I miss in my life

[ayham_kader]: and then link all these link this discomfort to all these because of course

[ayham_kader]: there are so many things that are missing in my life. There are so many things

[ayham_kader]: that I missing in my life

[ayham_kader]: missing. Let say, from my, I mean, I can name, and I'm sure you can name as

[ayham_kader]: well. just by the sheer act of comparison. There are so many things that are

[ayham_kader]: missing,

[ayham_kader]: But then

[ayham_kader]: I've been chasing them and achieving them and they were never enough and the

[ayham_kader]: discomfort is still here.

[ayham_kader]: But then again, that's what I'm saying Like in a dialogue,

[ayham_kader]: it sounds to me, at least for me, have

[ayham_kader]: aware

[ayham_kader]: of my seeing.

[ayham_kader]: I am aware

[ayham_kader]: it sounds like they. I've lost

[ayham_kader]: in living

[ayham_kader]: life

[ayham_kader]: the way that everybody is,

[ayham_kader]: or most people are living at. So, in Dialoge,

[ayham_kader]: to find out

[ayham_kader]: what is this life all about?

[paul]: So why should there be discomfort?

[ayham_kader]: Why should there be discomfort?

[ayham_kader]: anything? Am I here trying to get rid of it,

[ayham_kader]: attempting to get rid of it,

[ayham_kader]: or in your presence, You, Paul, a friend,

[ayham_kader]: that I really can be this vulnerable around. You know what I mean

[paul]: Mhm.

[ayham_kader]: like,

[ayham_kader]: Just

[ayham_kader]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader]: without

[ayham_kader]: panicking, Just because I'm trying to face that, which

[ayham_kader]: and I don't know. just without panicking. I'm not going to put a reason for you

[ayham_kader]: panic, but you know most people.

[ayham_kader]: Yeah, most of us will say come, don't bother with this. Don't bother with that.

[ayham_kader]: Just live like everyone is living.

[ayham_kader]: No, but you're here and

[ayham_kader]: not because you're supporting me or anything.

[ayham_kader]: You're here because you're here. You find yourself here and I think I don't

[ayham_kader]: know if I'm putting words in your mouth, but it feels like you' find yourself

[ayham_kader]: here. I find myself here,

[ayham_kader]: and maybe every day we add a reason, But that's not that we are not here

[ayham_kader]: because of the reasons,

[ayham_kader]: but see this. I don't know if this is another attempt

[ayham_kader]: or I'm trying to avoid this sense of

[ayham_kader]: discomfort

[ayham_kader]: by acknowledging

[ayham_kader]: your presence here with me.

[ayham_kader]: It now the discomfort is kind of. it's okay. Actually, it's something

[ayham_kader]: beautiful,

[ayham_kader]: but I don't know if my mind is the mind. My brain is kind of the created that

[ayham_kader]: take a sense of togetherness now

[paul]: I

[ayham_kader]: to ease it.

[paul]: think it that other think. That's the point

[paul]: we calling it discomfort,

[paul]: but it may be something else

[paul]: that doesn't have a word for it.

[paul]: If we had a word.

[paul]: If we knew what it was wicked.

[paul]: it would be comfortable then

[paul]: if we knew

[ayham_kader]: One

[paul]: well, if we knew where things were going, where they were lead.

[paul]: In that book

[paul]: the discomfort is

[paul]: it's being faced with something that,

[paul]: something

[paul]: in relationship

[paul]: between two people.

[paul]: That's uncomfortable.

[paul]: A lot of it is due to circumstance,

[paul]: Think you.

[paul]: We can find quick, simple reasons, but for a lot of it, but underneath

[paul]: sense of being lost, Right

[paul]: if you replace the word discomfort with the word lost,

[ayham_kader]: eighty

[ayham_kader]: two,

[ayham_kader]: Mhm.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Hi,

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah, I mean. Yeah, the internet get cut

[paul]: just you just got out. it. Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: off the other Internet. just got messed up.

[paul]: a good pointcause. I have to go and get the tip.

[paul]: the charger for this. So

[ayham_kader#dd]: Hm.

[ayham_kader#dd]: For some reason, other connection is even better, so that's good.

[paul]: okay? that's good.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Um. I had a thought. actually before. uh.

[ayham_kader#dd]: How can I say it?

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know in this uh,

[ayham_kader#dd]: and I think,

[ayham_kader#dd]: is it dialogue

[ayham_kader#dd]: useless for this kind of discomfort?

[paul]: is it? what?

[ayham_kader#dd]: Is it useless The way, at least the the way we are Cus accustomed to it?

[ayham_kader#dd]: Do you know what I mean

[ayham_kader#dd]: because I'll I'll tell you why I'm asking this.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Um,

[ayham_kader#dd]: when we address really discomfort properly,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but properly, I mean not going into memory, you know, and have kind of

[ayham_kader#dd]: talking up while addressing it or looking at it. Whatever that, whatever

[ayham_kader#dd]: looking at it is,

[ayham_kader#dd]: I feel like I want to go to sleep.

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know. it's like

[ayham_kader#dd]: it. Just it feels comfortable. not comfortable enough and not comfortable.

[ayham_kader#dd]: It' like

[ayham_kader#dd]: and I just like

[paul]: Have a familiar discomfort

[ayham_kader#dd]: H.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I don't know about familiar discomfort. But

[ayham_kader#dd]: and I mean, I can use a memory to explain what that is. But

[ayham_kader#dd]: like I'm kind of

[ayham_kader#dd]: sure

[ayham_kader#dd]: or positive

[ayham_kader#dd]: or not, posit, like I don't have to check. Almost

[ayham_kader#dd]: whether these things have reasons that I'm overlooking because I'm

[ayham_kader#dd]: irresponsible or I'm not being aware

[ayham_kader#dd]: or or, or or you know all these kind of reasons that could be

[ayham_kader#dd]: so

[ayham_kader#dd]: one just can be.

[ayham_kader#dd]: One can just be.

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know

[ayham_kader#dd]: about making sense

[ayham_kader#dd]: Because you have this this discomfort right and you try to solve the reasons

[ayham_kader#dd]: behind it like you know, in a casual way in a normal way in in life or

[ayham_kader#dd]: general.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but

[ayham_kader#dd]: it's not working really,

[ayham_kader#dd]: and the mind always tells you like I need more

[ayham_kader#dd]: or this or that or whatever,

[ayham_kader#dd]: But at some point also like I don't know, I question myself. Am I avoiding

[ayham_kader#dd]: those topics

[ayham_kader#dd]: right?

[ayham_kader#dd]: but

[ayham_kader#dd]: I'm not. I'm see. I'm not.

[ayham_kader#dd]: It doesn't seem that I'm avoiding it

[ayham_kader#dd]: clearly. Like my actions and whatever is in front of me is is clear to me.

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know. Um,

[ayham_kader#dd]: I really do think like when, because when it's when it's clear, you know,

[ayham_kader#dd]: kind of the kind of thought

[ayham_kader#dd]: memory, thinking

[ayham_kader#dd]: me past is cleared out

[ayham_kader#dd]: and you're kind of soaking in it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I, I've tried that way. I've tried of solving my discomfort through seeking

[ayham_kader#dd]: of solutions or or distracting myself with. Uh, with you know, with with

[ayham_kader#dd]: pleasures

[ayham_kader#dd]: or or this or or whatever, Like I've done that

[ayham_kader#dd]: already.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Do I really have to check myself all the time? Oh, am I being real about

[ayham_kader#dd]: this, or am I avoiding this or whatever?

[ayham_kader#dd]: It's like me being unsure

[ayham_kader#dd]: or doubtful

[ayham_kader#dd]: how

[ayham_kader#dd]: sincere

[ayham_kader#dd]: I am

[ayham_kader#dd]: right.

[ayham_kader#dd]: for the lack of a better wording

[ayham_kader#dd]: pulls me back into memory and try to kind of reconfirm and try to kind of

[ayham_kader#dd]: uh,

[ayham_kader#dd]: like making

[paul]: right?

[ayham_kader#dd]: memories making memory, or, or you know, kind of like displaying memory and

[ayham_kader#dd]: an inval lilid way all the time,

[paul]: So what's inrity?

[ayham_kader#dd]: not minding what happens.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Well, the ruote meaning of it is are not falsified,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but actually, but with this root meaning I don't think it's point. it has

[ayham_kader#dd]: any value.

[paul]: Know it's I think that discomfort is

[paul]: the sense that within one's cell

[paul]: there's nothing true?

[ayham_kader#dd]: the sense in oneself that nothing is true.

[paul]: No, not that nothing is true. there is nothing true within oneself.

[paul]: Then the feeling of insincerity

[paul]: and discomfort follows,

[paul]: and thats that's our. that's human discomfort.

[paul]: because we all tri to fill

[paul]: To put something true in there.

[paul]: fill that empty space with something

[paul]: we think is true.

[paul]: And then we'd have a dialogue Right

[paul]: and the truth is some truth is revealed,

[paul]: some truth about

[paul]: thought,

[paul]: some truth about perception,

[paul]: some truth,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Mhm.

[paul]: but that's not a truth,

[paul]: so it's our discomfort, but it's not our truth.

[ayham_kader#dd]: So what's

[ayham_kader#dd]: sincere to you?

[paul]: Well, the only thing that's true is that we are talking to each other

[paul]: and looking at things.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I don't know if we' look at each other

[ayham_kader#dd]: as much as we' looking.

[paul]: No, no, yeah, no, we look, but we're looking at this.

[paul]: We, looking at things, different things,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Hm.

[paul]: but including in the nature of our relationship, we're looking at that too.

[ayham_kader#dd]: That part of. of course,

[paul]: Part of it

[ayham_kader#dd]: that's uh, in a way, also the way we said Like friendship is there even if I

[ayham_kader#dd]: wasn't

[ayham_kader#dd]: It's kind of like, uh, friendship like I'm not a friendcause. At some point

[ayham_kader#dd]: I think, at least from my side, like, maybe

[ayham_kader#dd]: as if we have something true,

[ayham_kader#dd]: But then at that point it's only being used by, you know by me to support me

[ayham_kader#dd]: in my day. you know my life, or

[ayham_kader#dd]: you know the whole thing.

[paul]: what you mean to support? How would it? so? how would it support you

[ayham_kader#dd]: Uh, the idea that I have a friend.

[paul]: right?

[paul]: Okay,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: not any kind of friend. Of course, the kind of friend that not many have

[ayham_kader#dd]: or has.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Um, the kind of truth that you have and not many people have the whole thing

[ayham_kader#dd]: you know, just nuggets

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: decorating myself, basically

[ayham_kader#dd]: from the inside,

[ayham_kader#dd]: know Christmas decoration or spiritual decoration or whatever.

[ayham_kader#dd]: but I will ask again what is sincere to you.

[paul]: what does it mean to be sincere?

[paul]: I don't think we're capable of it

[ayham_kader#dd]: So why did I bring it up

[ayham_kader#dd]: or why was brought up?

[paul]: Because

[paul]: we, we want to know that we're doing the right thing.

[paul]: We're not wasting our life.

[ayham_kader#dd]: So I will really say what I'm saying. I will go back.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Sincere is

[ayham_kader#dd]: not minding what happens

[paul]: Okay

[paul]: is actually the case though

[ayham_kader#dd]: now or in my daily life.

[paul]: anywhere anyway.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Honestly, I I cannot like. I don't want to be a reflective of my past, but

[ayham_kader#dd]: uh now,

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah, I don't really mind what happens. Actually, I didn't

[paul]: No,

[ayham_kader#dd]: even mind how how we started. I'm not saying that, I'm saying that I'm

[ayham_kader#dd]: sincere. I'm not saying that

[ayham_kader#dd]: right. Don't get me wrong.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah, go on, please.

[paul]: No, in a doll, don't mind

[ayham_kader#dd]: Well,

[ayham_kader#dd]: we. um, I do mind

[ayham_kader#dd]: a lot of times,

[ayham_kader#dd]: I would say lately, I mind less,

[ayham_kader#dd]: uh, but you know you always mind less because you kind of

[ayham_kader#dd]: see the value of things. I don't know. I can't really explain it, but

[ayham_kader#dd]: also

[ayham_kader#dd]: uh, taking action

[ayham_kader#dd]: I think is part of sinceity. It's not like I like when I say when I'm

[ayham_kader#dd]: saying, I don't mind what happens

[ayham_kader#dd]: doesn't mean that everything is okay.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Do you know what I mean? maybe also part of what happens which I don't mind

[ayham_kader#dd]: is me stepping in

[ayham_kader#dd]: or speaking up,

[ayham_kader#dd]: you know, or embarrassing myself, or or or'm not that I. I'm not saying that

[ayham_kader#dd]: I'm any a of any of this. you know, I'm I'm not reflecting on the me and my

[ayham_kader#dd]: past, to say whether I am that or not, I'm just looking at whatever I'm

[ayham_kader#dd]: looking at. Do you understand me?

[ayham_kader#dd]: Things is really crucial. I don't want to say that I'm sincere in any way,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but I'm taking that

[ayham_kader#dd]: kind of articulated definition of what's sincere.

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know, for the moment of not minding what happens

[ayham_kader#dd]: and looking at it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I mean when you said that being sincere is something that we're not capable

[ayham_kader#dd]: of right cause. that's exactly what it means clean, unanjured unmixed

[ayham_kader#dd]: truthful,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but see, this is also something interesting. It sets

[ayham_kader#dd]: fromy of things whole, clean all that you know, pure true cand truthful

[ayham_kader#dd]: of uncertain origin.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Don know that' part of the meaning ors,

[ayham_kader#dd]: that which is not falsified free from pretence or falsehood,

[paul]: pure. Yes, just pure.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Ha is also apparently a meaning. By the way,

[ayham_kader#dd]: whole is also

[paul]: How

[ayham_kader#dd]: sincere,

[paul]: fresh?

[paul]: Well, I would think

[ayham_kader#dd]: fresh, Sure,

[paul]: theresh clean

[ayham_kader#dd]: clean fresh, not memory not painted by memory.

[ayham_kader#dd]: This is if you bring memory to the table.

[ayham_kader#dd]: if you bring memory to the

[ayham_kader#dd]: tableless

[paul]: being insincere,

[paul]: Uniesles know in memory

[ayham_kader#dd]: in a dialogue again, I think it's

[paul]: in a dialogue in a dialogue. If you relying on memory

[paul]: to answer the questions, the a being asked

[paul]: Sponse.

[paul]: If you are not doing that,

[paul]: if that is not happening,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Mhm. If that's not happening. Yes,

[paul]: you're not doing anything.

[paul]: So there is no one there to be sincere or insincere.

[paul]: These words, All these words where there are opposites,

[paul]: comt discomfortre and insincere

[paul]: and falsehood,

[paul]: They're all psychological,

[paul]: the tools of our psychology.

[ayham_kader#dd]: sure,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but I don't know of these addresses. Whatever is that question here? are we

[ayham_kader#dd]: hesitant to go into what is the quality of sincerity?

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know, this is. we've been here before

[ayham_kader#dd]: we've

[paul]: Yeah, Probably

[ayham_kader#dd]: been here before. Y. and the last season we've been here before.

[ayham_kader#dd]: we' kind of like reluctance to step in whatever that is in.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Because I told you otherwise, dialogue is pointless anymore. If all

[ayham_kader#dd]: dialoguees do discuss, Sorry to go into the assumptions of man right

[ayham_kader#dd]: then, that's it

[paul]: which we know. Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: then.

[paul]: which we never Fas already here.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah, so we shall. I honestly, I would save, and we should maybe stop

[ayham_kader#dd]: dialoguing at this point.

[ayham_kader#dd]: or or maybe, or maybe, as we said, talk to people who don't know about

[ayham_kader#dd]: dialogue. and just like you know, take that journey with them. Otherwise

[ayham_kader#dd]: we're just pinning in in in a bottle. I mean that's my own view now at it,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but there must be something else other than dwelling in whatever makes them

[ayham_kader#dd]: me, me,

[ayham_kader#dd]: and every time like, I think I don't know if being harsh or not, but I think

[ayham_kader#dd]: I, luckya

[ayham_kader#dd]: it's a very limited tool, words and language.

[ayham_kader#dd]: then, Maybe it's not a matter of using it all the time, but using it really

[ayham_kader#dd]: very more carefully,

[ayham_kader#dd]: rather than

[ayham_kader#dd]: taking the words at face value.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah, of course it is, and

[ayham_kader#dd]: the utmost important

[ayham_kader#dd]: most

[ayham_kader#dd]: to check if

[ayham_kader#dd]: I'm talking on a cloud or

[ayham_kader#dd]: really,

[ayham_kader#dd]: so I will ask. I will ask one more time. What do you think

[ayham_kader#dd]: That sincere thing is

[ayham_kader#dd]: not as an way of defining it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: What do you see now

[ayham_kader#dd]: in thisment

[ayham_kader#dd]: Not trying to kind of clarify something. just really. just

[paul]: No. No, I understand.

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah, Yeah,

[paul]: Yeah. yeah,

[paul]: after the retlements, I would say this two elements

[paul]: that may sound contradictory, but I think they have to go together

[paul]: to realize that one is totally lost,

[paul]: but with no fear

[paul]: in others

[ayham_kader#dd]: you go.

[paul]: Does that make sense?

[ayham_kader#dd]: this is for me.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Another way of saying, not minding what happens,

[paul]: I suppose it is

[ayham_kader#dd]: but I think you just put it

[ayham_kader#dd]: very appropriately, But then again, I'm not going to celebrate this.

[ayham_kader#dd]: whatever it is.

[paul]: no. No, but I think we' all lost

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah, but

[paul]: memory comes in

[paul]: to deal with that.

[paul]: Thats that's the insincere part of it.

[paul]: You denying being lost, your refusing to be lost

[paul]: is not the same as confused, although there may be an element of that.

[ayham_kader#dd]: has options already. memory is already intact like memory. Present. being

[ayham_kader#dd]: lost is

[ayham_kader#dd]: of

[ayham_kader#dd]: losing taste.

[ayham_kader#dd]: losing the ability.

[ayham_kader#dd]: at least for me. now talking about other people,

[ayham_kader#dd]: the lack of ability or

[ayham_kader#dd]: just losing the taste of memory anymore doesn't really taste like anything

[ayham_kader#dd]: before it To give yous.

[paul]: Yeah, Yeah, not knowing what to do

[paul]: that memory saying so memory is not saying. Okay,

[paul]: I know what to do.

[ayham_kader#dd]: sure, but this sounds like a stepback.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Were there at being lost

[ayham_kader#dd]: and

[ayham_kader#dd]: without fear because you're done with fear because you're done with memory.

[ayham_kader#dd]: And then we took a step back explaining what memory does and it sounds like

[ayham_kader#dd]: a steb. again. We've been here before.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Why are we reluctant

[ayham_kader#dd]: to really act on this

[ayham_kader#dd]: sense of being lost,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Because we say that I'm lost

[ayham_kader#dd]: without fear, but I'm going back in memory.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Then am I? really? Is that really?

[ayham_kader#dd]: Is that really the case? Then

[paul]: So the question is what is action then from there

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: without explaining what

[ayham_kader#dd]: reaction is

[paul]: without explaining without going yet. Okay. Yeah,

[paul]: without explaining without going yet. Okay. Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: see, this is the beginning of the dialogue. Me,

[ayham_kader#dd]: cause. usually when we sta start in the dialogue, we need a.

[ayham_kader#dd]: the lack of a better word of crutch in crutch, like something to lean on to

[ayham_kader#dd]: start walking of.

[ayham_kader#dd]: So it depend on memory to start the dialogue

[ayham_kader#dd]: right, And that's almost every dialogue. I would say,

[paul]: can you explain the difference in between

[paul]: that? this.

[paul]: How how did it feel different?

[ayham_kader#dd]: the dialogue. You mean

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: starting from memo,

[paul]: when you say this

[paul]: when you said this is the start of the dialogue here.

[ayham_kader#dd]: because uh,

[ayham_kader#dd]: I don't know the dialogue when it comes. you know, from those muual

[ayham_kader#dd]: beginnings there is a great deal of support.

[ayham_kader#dd]: you know.

[ayham_kader#dd]: agreed. I think we support each other.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I think in this sense there is no support. I'm not trying to support you

[ayham_kader#dd]: anyway,

[ayham_kader#dd]: and I don't know if you're not trying to support me anyway, But

[ayham_kader#dd]: there's no need to prove that we're together. We are.

[ayham_kader#dd]: While most dialogues that we had,

[ayham_kader#dd]: it takes a great deal of time just to prove

[ayham_kader#dd]: without a doubt that we are together for us to be together, and we

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: celebrate the fact that we arere together

[ayham_kader#dd]: and may, and just stay there for a bit, And that would be the end of it

[ayham_kader#dd]: right. Go home. Enjoy myself. Feel good. Come back down as dialogue with

[ayham_kader#dd]: other kind of stress with other kinds of. Anyway, The whole thing.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I really, I mean. I. I mean, maybe this is just something that I'm saying,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but in this sense I really prefer the word the synopsis. I really prefer the

[ayham_kader#dd]: words synopsis now and it's actually it has a verbs, s and up size in in a

[ayham_kader#dd]: way, Like kind of the act of seeing together. There's no way like it's It's

[ayham_kader#dd]: not a matter of. Um,

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know, it's

[ayham_kader#dd]: you. You're done. I, we're done with that.

[paul]: We done with. Okay. Yeah, that makes it clear, I think yet think we need another word

[paul]: separate from dialogue. Now out be

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah, yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: I, I, I think synops for me. I think Synopsize is really a suitable word.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Um, let

[paul]: see together.

[ayham_kader#dd]: me. Yeah,

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: um,

[paul]: seeing together.

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: actually, you know I. I was laughing a little.

[ayham_kader#dd]: because Uh, some, you know memory came in my head and I was really actually

[ayham_kader#dd]: Id. This is what came in my head. Uh, it's a series called Flea bag. I don't

[ayham_kader#dd]: know if I don't know if you know it or not. Of course you've seen it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: You like it or not, just a side

[paul]: Yeah, yeah, Yeah's, good is good,

[ayham_kader#dd]: note. Yeah, I, I think it's amazing. Really. So the season two when she, uh,

[ayham_kader#dd]: it was basically the season, too, was about love and romance. And and then

[ayham_kader#dd]: she met the priest.

[paul]: Ion.

[paul]: I only have a saw a season too. I never saw a season one.

[paul]: But yeah, so it's the same.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I see. Well, actually I pref See season one. Yeah, season one is cool as

[ayham_kader#dd]: well, But season two, You remember the

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: church scene, not the church scene, the scene when she went to, Uh, you

[ayham_kader#dd]: know, the the main actress and her

[ayham_kader#dd]: lover, I think whatever, Then they went in this circle where people just sit

[ayham_kader#dd]: silently. I know whenever someone has something to say

[ayham_kader#dd]: or when words come up, they just stand up and they say whatever come them.

[ayham_kader#dd]: So she got up and said, I don't think it would be that much of a feminist if

[ayham_kader#dd]: I had bigger bobs.

[ayham_kader#dd]: she said,

[ayham_kader#dd]: So it's like, In a sense,

[ayham_kader#dd]: dialogue is new, you know, like in that sense, But is it really new?

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know what I mean.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I'm not really sure

[ayham_kader#dd]: like

[ayham_kader#dd]: I think it's been there and everyone tries to bring it in their own way,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Is quite difficult to to look together

[ayham_kader#dd]: while being lost its lack.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah,

[paul]: Yeah, I think that's the balance. It's looking together while being lost. Because the

[paul]: yeah,

[paul]: difficult

[paul]: asking,

[paul]: So the discomfort

[paul]: of being lost

[paul]: won't be

[paul]: won't be held by the seeing.

[ayham_kader#dd]: to be the energy of seeing.

[paul]: Yeah,

[paul]: so it Ds like. Yeah, So

[paul]: it a different energy at work or at play

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: honestly, I think this is one of the main reasons why my evenings are kind

[ayham_kader#dd]: of tough. Because I really don't know what to do with my evenings.

[ayham_kader#dd]: There is this discomfort and

[ayham_kader#dd]: I'm kind of. I don't want to start like I'm I'm pretty sure

[ayham_kader#dd]: I know, but it's like,

[ayham_kader#dd]: and honestly it's not a matter of choice anymore. Don't like it. Because

[ayham_kader#dd]: if it's there knocking at your door and not doing anything with it, you're

[ayham_kader#dd]: just basicallyming I don't know. I think there's self harm. Really, I' not

[ayham_kader#dd]: sel harmy. Know you just not going to say wasting it. whatever, they just

[ayham_kader#dd]: really

[ayham_kader#dd]: like. You're getting close to the fire,

[ayham_kader#dd]: you know,

[ayham_kader#dd]: and you're not going into it. You're just you know, staying close to it for

[ayham_kader#dd]: some reason, but

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah, I'm reluctant to step into the fire. I'm going to say I'm not going to

[ayham_kader#dd]: call it like thisknn. Just really.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah, see, uh, going back and explaining

[ayham_kader#dd]: in an infinite number of ways

[ayham_kader#dd]: is really fun. I, I really enjoy it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I definitely really really enjoy it. It's so much fun

[ayham_kader#dd]: to to to look at this, which is

[ayham_kader#dd]: very simple and clear, Right,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but then it's always. It can always be explained differently. Describe

[ayham_kader#dd]: differently,

[ayham_kader#dd]: maybe because of the people that are present

[ayham_kader#dd]: and beaiful,

[ayham_kader#dd]: but then really, after a all becomes really just nothing but entertainment

[ayham_kader#dd]: Because

[ayham_kader#dd]: it's like going to work every day. you know, going to work every day and

[ayham_kader#dd]: just

[ayham_kader#dd]: it is enjoyable. Of course, I'm doingm, doing carpentry or whatever

[ayham_kader#dd]: other. just doing it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Mhm.

[ayham_kader#dd]: How's it going with you now?

[paul]: that it feels like we just begun.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah,

[paul]: So how would we? How would it work? How would we start

[paul]: from from the beginning? Sypsis?

[ayham_kader#dd]: I don't know.

[ayham_kader#dd]: you know.

[paul]: Now, wait a minute. If we did

[paul]: would we bring in discomfort?

[ayham_kader#dd]: I don't know.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Don't know.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I mean, did.

[paul]: I, well, I think we need that may be the point where we have to start with. Say will

[paul]: start with sypsis

[ayham_kader#dd]: Mm,

[ayham_kader#dd]: So I think the next time would be

[paul]: in. so we're not going to start with any problem.

[ayham_kader#dd]: no,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Mhm.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I mean, that has its place. for sure. There's a problem and we go into it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know, because every problem is a psychological problem and we

[paul]: Yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: go into it but

[paul]: but yeah, but we won't do that.

[paul]: We. we'll find out what happens when we don't start with any problem.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Mhm. Mhm.

[ayham_kader#dd]: So in a sense

[ayham_kader#dd]: maybe be checking if one has a problem.

[ayham_kader#dd]: One of you know one of us. If they have a problem. Now if they don't

[ayham_kader#dd]: then it's automatically synopsis. Without trying to fabricate a problem,

[ayham_kader#dd]: You know what I mean

[ayham_kader#dd]: and having a dialogue over it.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Um,

[ayham_kader#dd]: I don't know if if I don't know if it. Mm, Mhm,

[paul]: Well have to do it. have to say, that have to find out

[ayham_kader#dd]: I mean, we're kind of maybe just like. Uh, yeah, of course, hundred percent

[ayham_kader#dd]: that that goes. Yeah, a hundred percent. but I'm saying like, Do you think

[ayham_kader#dd]: it's a matter of decision like we decide

[ayham_kader#dd]: to do So It for me Now it feels like Yes,

[ayham_kader#dd]: it is possible.

[ayham_kader#dd]: right.

[paul]: for me. It feels like something is possible. I don't know what.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah.

[paul]: It's just something different.

[ayham_kader#dd]: I'm looking forward to it.

[paul]: It's a springboard into something

[ayham_kader#dd]: H.

[paul]: that isn't all all the usual dialoge.

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah.

[paul]: Cont,

[ayham_kader#dd]: yeah,

[ayham_kader#dd]: so next week,

[ayham_kader#dd]: shall we?

[paul]: Yes, you picked the day. I don't mind,

[ayham_kader#dd]: Yeah? just let me stop the recording and then we' talk off line. Yeah, that

[ayham_kader#dd]: will be

[paul]: right?

[ayham_kader#dd]: yes.

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